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Scientists find 4.5 billion year old rocks on Baffin Island

Baffin Island
Baffin Island
Baffin Island (Photo by Don Francis, McGill University).

Geologists have discovered lava rocks on Canada’s Baffin Island that bear traces of molten material over 4.5 billion years old.

The research team led by Dr. Hanika Rizo now of the Université de Montréal was surprised to find the material dating back to the days of Earth’s formation into an iron-rich core, a mantle of silicate and an outer rocky crust. 4.5 billion years ago, the Earth’s crust was still being created, from the upward rise of melted mantle followed by the downward sinking of its denser elements back towards the Earth’s core.

These denser elements of crust formation were previously thought to have been thoroughly re-mixed back into the mantle, but by narrowing their search to an isotope of tungsten -one of the materials thought to have been fully re-mixed – within lava rocks on both Baffin Island and the Ontong-Java Plateau in the Pacific Ocean north of the Solomon Islands, researchers hit upon their unique discovery: a higher concentration of tungsten-182 than previously known, indicating that this rock was present all those years ago when the Earth’s crust was still under construction.

“This demonstrates that some remnants of the early Earth’s interior, the composition of which was determined by the planet’s formation processes, still exist today,” says Dr. Rizo.

The finding sheds new light on this early period in Earth’s history as well as providing greater insight on what’s actually to be found deep within the Earth’s mantle. “The survival of this material would not be expected given the degree to which plate tectonics has mixed and homogenized the planet’s interior over the past 4.5 billion years, so these findings are a wonderful surprise,” says Dr. Richard Carlson, Director of the Carnegie Institution for Science’s Department of Terrestrial Magnetism and co-author of the study.

The dynamic movement of materials on the Earth’s surface, known as plate tectonics, is actually a rarity among planets in our solar system. In fact, Earth is the only planet on which the surface is in such continual change, with plates colliding and sliding into one another, forever forming mountain ranges and splitting apart continents.

For years, scientists were puzzled as to why this is so – and, in particular, how the process started on Earth, as it has been determined that during the first one or even two billion years of Earth’s history, the dynamism of plate tectonics did not occur. Now, researchers at the GFZ German Research Centre for Geosciences have come up with an explanation.

For the surface to move, rise up and sink down into the Earth’s mantle, three conditions need to be met. First, the upward flow of hot liquid rock (known as a mantle plume) has to be large and hot enough to produce a lot of melt in the Earth’s crust, effectively weakening it. Second, the crust has to be made of material thick and heavy enough to sink back into the mantle. And third, there has to be liquid water in abundance to “lubricate” the movement of materials of the tectonic plates.

All three factors, of course, exist on Earth, whereas on our sister planet, Venus, while mantle plumes are in fact common, the crust is too light and there is no liquid on the surface.

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About The Author /

Jayson is a writer, researcher and educator with a PhD in political philosophy from the University of Ottawa. His interests range from bioethics and innovations in the health sciences to governance, social justice and the history of ideas.
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  1. silliness. All our rocks are the same age. The water, the air all of it. it might have been re-cycled, as they say, the water we drink went through a dinosaur once or twice. But its still the same water and the same age. I guess you can make new water but then you would say the Hydrogen and Oxygen are the same age…

  2. How can there be 4.5 billion year old rocks in a world that is only 5000 years old ? ask your Clergy for an exclamation !

  3. Free Oxygen, geologically speaking, is one of the last things that ever developed on “our” planet. Hydrogen, on the other hand, is the oldest element in the universe. A good part of the water on the planet was seeded from outer space and brought here by meteorites, and is actually older than the stuff of which the planet is made. What’s more, the water on our planet was present nearly two billion years before a breathable (by us) atmosphere developed. Most of what we consider as “life” couldn’t have lived on the Earth as it was for the first three billion years, or so, of its existence. So, no, the rocks, the water, the air, none of it is the same age.

  4. 4.5 billion years is just a theory. Did you really think we could accurately measure that many years? That amount of time is needed for evolution to make and sense at all.

  5. It can be, and IS accurately measured within 5%. Learn the science behind it.

  6. Wrong. The elements themselves are the same age….but the way and when they are arranged into the state they exist in now is in a constant state of perpetual change.
    Unless 2 rocks are from the same original rock that formed at some point, no 2 rocks are the same age….at all

  7. Read bones of contention and other books. There is plenty of disagreement between all scientists on the age of different things. Its not as cut and dried as articles online make it sound. Do your research.

  8. say what you want.
    Sedimentary layers of soil tell the tale.
    There is clear evidence that the dinosaurs died out around 65 000 000 years ago.
    If anything the earth might be a bit older than 4.5 billion years. Those “scientists” you refer to are not paleontologists or cosmologists, and most of them believe in creationism.

  9. It’s embarrassing that you’re not only a Canadian but that you’re using the logo of the Winnipeg Jets. The only liars in these comments are the science deniers who think everything’s a conspiracy because “goddidit”. Grow up and educate yourself.

  10. “Just a theory” is the cry of every ignorant turd who doesn’t understand the difference between a hypothetical theory and a Scientific Theory. You don’t deserve to post comments on a subject that you clearly have no understanding of. Go back to Sunday School and stop trolling science.

  11. It didn’t take long for the mentally retarded creationist trolls to show up. Does Ken Ham pay you guys to post asinine drivel on science websites?

  12. If the whole universe was made at the same time. Its all the same age.

  13. It wasn’t “made at the same time”. Cosmic expansion and existence itself holds no bounds, and is infinite in nature. The universe exists within a continuum, which according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, can never be created or destroyed…so I disagree. Nothing ever needed to created, nor has a “nothing” ever existed in order for there to be a purpose to “make all things at the same time.”

  14. nope didn’t take long LOL.
    They are lied to since birth in many cases. The indoctrination (brainwashing) is like crack to an addict.
    …The single-most reason why the world is a little messed up! Its easier to just to simply believe things others believe than actually dedicate any time to available CREDIBLE knowledge that could enlighten one’s mind to actual reality, simply for the sheer lack of the entertainment provided by the study of the required academics needed to arm the tool box of the naturally illogical human mind.
    Why even bother try to figure out how reality works…God already did for me!

  15. The Second law as you phrase it is Wrong.
    Entropy and Enthalpy.
    The total amount of energy in a system winds down. The Enthalpy will be reorganized till there is no moving, no energy, nothing. The Yin will counter balance the Yang. In a infinite universe its really hard to grasp it. But IF there was a big bang as some conjecture called science suggests, then there was a fixed amount created from a singularity. And that is all we know of, and there is nothing we know of doing the same thing impacting our space, that we can see.
    I guess in theory if there was another big bang going and it was heading our way, we still couldn’t see it because something would have to reach us, the light at least, and from what we can see light has traveled from the distant stars to us, so for a long long time, there hasn’t been any collisions, but who knows that could be coming for us if there was multiple big bangs.

    But the conjecture of a big bang doesn’t work because they say that only seconds after the big bang all of matter in the universe was created as Alpha Particles. which is Helium without Electrons. The problem is all that matter (the total of the known universe in Alpha Particle form) could not fit in the time space of a few seconds. It would take years of travel just to say that there was enough space for that matter to fit in. And it takes 8 minutes just for the light to get to us from the sun.

    So the false theory with a false assumption of a fixed amount of energy and matter is the Science fiction of the day. And what I am saying is, that total mass of vibrating energetic matter will wind down, like a candle burning out. And its hard to believe that the Big Bang sat around in a universe for infinity, only to go off now and start unwinding. There had to be a watch maker who started the unwind. And the way I see it if its unwound then there would be only one time around for all this. And I cannot see that as being realistic. Just saying energy always existed doesn’t make it so or logical.

    Way I see it is, there has to be a outside force able to exist infinitely, and that force created the known universe as we see it. I am not talking about a perpetual motor or something like that I am talking about a God. One can argue what and who and where that God is. But the need for that out of time and space and not in need of energy is an absolute necessary for the winding up and the unwinding of the known universe.

    Rene Decartes said, “I think therefore I am” proving we exist. Maybe its a dream, maybe its reality, but either way there is some thought and some energy and some existence in a infinite universe. It boggles the mind that we actually exist. And its sort of scary that we don’t fully know this God or force that is Ancient.

    Only Jesus has made claim to being that God, the “I AM” and we could argue about the “who” but I think Jesus is that who. And this is his grass, his world. And I think within this creation we should try and find out our purpose, our meaning, our God. . .

  16. Simple life gives rise to intelligent life…not the other way around. Makes no sense

  17. Entropy never actually existed. It is supposed for the purpose of mathematical vantage.

  18. Entropy claims the all was once together, when in fact there never was an “all”, as the infinite holds no bounds. People can generally only relate to finite things, due to the limited time we are alive to observe it.
    All life force is dependent upon the circumstances that occur with matter as it rotates around stars.
    And this is randomized throughout the universe. Life comes from matter when it becomes animated by star radiation…
    There does not need to exist a god for that to occur..

  19. Sure there does. The Idea that stuff exists infinitely is a run away equation where there is no bottom, and the concept of God creates a action force that is counter to dilution.

    Also Spiral Galaxies for example make no sense. For every action there must be a reaction. So, if you spin a galaxy there by law should be the results on the neighboring matter. This proves there is an unseen hand acting that is not movable in that it can cause what we see as physical things move while not moving other objects in the opposite direction.

    It would be more scientific if the Big Bang was erased as a model and a popcorn style soft big bang was created as the cause of the universe as we see it so that while it would expand, The space needed for expansion of Alpha particles would be present locally to the bangs, and Odd shapes and rotations could be explained by uneven expansion.

    Its my belief that the reason they even postulated a big bang wasn’t to explain red shift, but to try and create some self perpetuating, independent non God cause for the universe. Which is not a scientific thing but more of a Moral/Philosophical agenda. Obviously I am a supporter of faith and Christianity, but I think Science and Beginnings can and do work together as one IF the Science is actually accurate. One day I hope we can pull apart what actually happened and how it happened, and have better understand about what Infinity looks like.

    Back to the different ages of rocks and things of that nature. I have no trust in these people dating rocks. And I don’t believe they have even the slightest Idea of how the world began Or how water came to the earth or how the KM’s of sediment came on the earth on every continent. I think most of the statements made by papers etc. are supposed Science but actually Rhetoric without real science behind the statements, actually intended to support a deep time view of the earth. And while that is not contrary to the bible or God, its brother Evolution which is another Deep time false notion is a clear attempt to replace the God of the Bible with some false theory of Rocks and sediment. Which is easy to disprove because the very same things in the sediment for the most part are living today, from fish to Foxes, unchanged but all the intermediates some how are missing. The Missing links are not the fossils that are the sheep and the giraffes etc. they are both in the fossil record and living. (apparently from deep time. but unchanged.) and all the rocks with these Intermediates in the billions are missing. There is a lot more to that whole thing. But the relationship to the Article is that this is just another attempt to distance science from Gods Creation and I doubt that there was any real science done on these rocks at all.

  20. No, we have life here on earth so we think life is normal, but existence and matter and the created universe is not the normal way things tend to be and given enough time they would dilute not become more than they are.

    Gravity may concentrate matter, but getting the strong forces and weak forces to make a uniform universe with the current possible atomic structures is not something that just happens.

    Life, the Amoeba with billions of base pairs doesn’t evolve. The Idea of Evolution is a false construct. Things decay, they don’t evolve. Evolution is not in the fossil record. Some mutations in our lives shows that things can get screwed up, but that does not lead to limbs in the right place or eyes and ears. Blind random selection is not needed when the very same fish back in yesteryear in fossil records still exist today. And that Blind accidental change through reproduction does not produce a Dead leaf butter fly for example because many butter flies exist and everyone before it would have existed so even the strongest survived doesn’t make sense. it is a Dead leaf butterfly because it was created by intelligence just like the forces of nature have been. Just our solar system should show any thinking mind how God has put the planets in orbit. Any natural event or events would have had all of them eaten by the sun. Before there was a spark and the sun was a ball of gas. all of it drawing in and compressing, they would have been chunks of what? Rock. how would they be rock. From star dust. the melting furnace for the creation of heavy things. Those explosions would be jumping from solar system to system star to star, and I see no place for the forming of planets. To suggest that gravel the size of our planet would then heat up and become our planet and that the rest would then be cleared up and eaten by the sun is a real wild story. Specially when some of our planets are gas planets. Then there is the moon just nicely cycle around our earth and other moons around other planets. Thats far too neat and tidy for random events. Moons to small for this supposed molten rounding. The only way to create a narrative like that would be to suggest that the rock planets where shot out of the Sun the size they are, in a molten state and then cooled round. But like a pin ball machine, they would go out and come back in. Not cycle around the sun. And then that would lead to the concept of our planet being from another solar system ejected from that sun traveling through till it got caught in our suns gravity.

    You can create all kinds of conjecture. But that doesn’t make it science. It is next to bold face lying. yet, while its 2016 years since Christ was born on the earth, many will say he never existed. Imagine that. Will bet their lives on conjecture about where their planet came from, but will deny provable history. And that is where I have seen the actual motive behind much of the trash called science coming across our computer scenes these days.

  21. What you are doing is attempting to fit observations of universal formation and integrating this into a theologically based paradigm of creation.
    It will never become true no matter how much you think it will.
    Creationism is the real hoax, and more and more people are rising out of it.
    I hope you don’t believe the Earth is only 6000 years old.

  22. You should be aware that every living thing is comprised of cells which divide. Each of those cells is a lone micro-organism, which all live in symbiosis. Which means that you have 1 body, comprised of trillions of independent organisms which all work together to survive.
    Life evolves…
    At the advent of life sprouting on earth the process was the same. Micro-organisms combining to present diversity and adaptation.
    These are facts. You have not mentioned any facts, only concepts which will not, and can never be proven.
    There is no law against believing, so have ater

  23. There are plenty of “run away equations”
    try counting to the end of numbers lately?
    100/3 = 33.333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
    Looks like a run away equation to me.

  24. I think they fit. Its not an attempt. the first 9 verses in the bible prove to me that God did things. Knowing that the land was under the water can be verified by sedimentary layers. Also this concept of continental plates and uplift also has been verified. Scientifically. it would have been impossible for Moses or some previous writer to know these things about the way our land masses move and what has happened. While it is a very general statement its right on the money.

    I believe that Moses 3,500 years ago, took secondary information about events preceding him, (two separate creation accounts) and included them in the bible. I am all for science, and am glad to see geology move forward. But the Bible doesn’t contradict the findings, they support actual science before that science was there to be studied.

    Clearly its not a detailed account but thats fine, The bible only has general statements about creation to relate it to the relationship God wants with mankind.

    I love it that God discusses Dinosaurs with Job and that they are mentioned in Psalms. But have only been discovered in our recent history. Liberals might want to try and avoid these hard facts. there are liberals that would say the Job and Psalms reference was about Hippos and Crocodiles. That is not what the scripture shows.

    What I am saying is, don’t buy the crap that is intentionally trying to distance you from God. If we can exist, God can also exist. And from what I have seen and from what I can figure, he does exist, he has created all things, and there is no need to create these articles only but to attempt to create a back story against God centered creation but when you look at the actual science, there is not behind these articles. All of it is conjecture.

    One other cool thing is that the bible mentions that the morning stars sings together.
    Job 38:7King James Version (KJV)
    7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
    That slice of text mentions the morning star. But only recently we have realize through science that it is a twin star and “sings” together. And its not fair to include Venus in that because it shows up at night too and isn’t a star. But Sirius is. And it would be impossible for them to know it was a Binary star. What God said to Job would have not made total sense to them, but it revealed that it wasn’t some Jewish writer creating a hoaxy story but a account of a conversation God was having with Job.
    I realize these sort of things are very sparse but they shouldn’t be discounted as lucky guesses. But clues, that science can pick up on.

    Another interesting thing looks accidental is, when God says the two will become one flesh. Until recently we didn’t know that DNA is actually half of one spouse genetically and half of the other. the two actually become one. There is lots of this sort of thing. And these people where not cave men making up stories. They where building complex system, smelting copper and bronze etc. These people wrote down things that happened, and now we see they where not way out of line. I still couldn’t smelt any metal.

    Funny thing about Sirius and some other stars close by, if they have mass ejections and create stellar wind in theory they could affect our planet. Who knows they may be responsible for the KT boundary. seen in the rock layers. Its an important star to the past history of the Egyptians. But its only the bible that mentions it as two.

    there is so much from sanitary rules and hand washing to farming practices that we still used today from crop rotation to removing walls covered in mold to sanitize a place. Only recently have we realized that Mold has roots. And even if you bleach Mold, the root remains and can re-grow. So in Construction we either remove the walls, the drywall etc. OR we seal them with a Kills Paint that encapsulates the mold.

    so what I see is a fight of bigotry, not a fight between science and a biblical document. The bible and Christians support good science.

  25. yes, sure. And isn’t it amazing just what happens in a single sell. Jerold ford would be proud.

  26. Galaxies make perfect sense. They do have an effect on surrounding matter, in fact galaxies are in clusters and orbit around one another similar to the way planets revolve around stars.
    It does not fit. There are multiple inaccuracies and contradictions, and genesis is a terrible description.
    for example – there was never darkness upon the face of the deep. The earth was a molten ball way to hot to exist liquid water for there even to be a “deep”
    Furthermore, the sun was already burning at that point for around 500 000 000 years, so no…nobody could have ever said “let there be light”
    seeing that the sun was already there for hundreds of millions of years.
    That is one example of a multitude

  27. In order for expansion to exist, deflation from an alternate expansion likely exists.
    Never in nature can you observe 1 type of any particular thing.
    There is never only 1 of anything, just more of the same thing with subtle differentiation.
    It is completely plausible that existence itself is the infinite, in which there is not possible to exist a beginning or an end. No beginning = no creation = no creator necessary. Reality is simply a continuum of motion of matter.
    The nature of motion of matter need not have began at anytime. Matter did not need a beginning, but only requires to simply exist for the sake of existence.

  28. The problem with any theology, is that is tends to negate critical thinking and substitute causation and effect for causation from god. Then when the truth becomes undeniable, religion admits its was wrong and assimilates the scientifically proven fact (after forgiving whoever burnt all the witches and warlocks and beheading all the infidels), incorporating and changing the paradigm to fit the new information that has been proven out of the ashes
    Science does this as well, but without holding the delusion that is intrinsic to the false premise of truth, that all things need a creator to exist, when clearly it is the un-animated that becomes the animated. It is the simple that develops the complicated.
    Considering it took approx. 13.8 billion years to evolve complex life as we know it is the current cosmic expansion, it does not make any sense in my opinion that a entity or life such as an omnipotent being would even be bothered at all to do such things, as they simply would not be necessary given the idea that life already evolved into a god.
    Simply, rocks and raw elements do not start out with personalities that make conscious decisions, and all energy is exuded from matter, matter is not a result of energy. Its consumed and converted into energy, so therefore there can not be an exterior force that does not involve the consumption of matter. There is no such thing as an intangible, without the corresponding tangible to define it.
    There is no Grand intelligence, or else everybody would know everything intrinsically. Free will is simply a function of biology, and is a result our 5 senses reacting to the environment. Our brain is developed primarily because our hands are capable of fine motor skills, whereas the rest of the animal kingdom does not have that attribute, because they simply did not need it to survive. In nature, what is not needed is omitted in general, which is why cave enclosed fish species are undergoing reverse biological evolution…the eyes are not needed, so they grow over and begin to return to the brain whence they evolved from.

  29. I didn’t say when God said let their be light. and light had to start from a star at some point. If the gases could not have a nuclear ignition and critical mass without first compressing and the size of Sun would have been something. the solar system would have looked far different. AND, when the nuclear reactions started and the fire burned on the surface of the sun, one could truly say, And God said, let their be light.

    If that Idea of a blob or planet coming from another star was true, it could be that us entering the area of the sun accompanied with extra Hydrogen and things of that nature was enough to create that first nuclear reaction. I haven’t had a ball of Hydrogen in my hand so I don’t know if they need a moderator to help the reaction to spontaneously react. Or if there was one stopping the reaction.

    If you know someone who was around then, let me know I would love to ask him the details of when the sun started to shine and if it had its total supply of Helium and Hydrogen etc. Or if it waited till there was all that there basically is before it lit up.

  30. I think that could be true if nothing ever touched anything else and there was no forces. But because of Gravity and the effect of things canceling each other out, there is a decay of the total potential of everything. I wonder if anyone calculated how long a atom would stay in the form of a atom if it was alone in space for infinity. how long would the Electrons spin around lets say a Helium atom till it was no more, and until those fundamental parts where not able to hold together.

    Unfortunately Decay is a fundamental principle of our universe. What I said in the beginning, that is the reason I see a need for a God, We and all we see is basically a glorified gas tank running out.

  31. The problem with any theology, is that is tends to negate critical thinking and substitute causation and effect for causation from god. Then when the truth becomes undeniable, religion admits its was wrong and assimilates the scientifically proven fact (after forgiving whoever burnt all the witches and warlocks and beheading all the infidels who discovered it) then conveniently adjust the paradigm to fit the new information that has been proven out of the ashes.Science does this as well, but without holding the delusion that is intrinsic to the false premise of truth, that all things need a creator to exist, when clearly it is the UN-animated that becomes the animated. It is the simple that develops into the complicated, not the opposite.
    Considering it took approx. 13.8 billion years to evolve complex life as we know it is the current cosmic expansion, it does not make any sense in my opinion that a entity or life such as an omnipotent being would even be bothered at all to do such things, as they simply would not be necessary given the idea that life already evolved into a god.
    Simply, rocks and raw elements do not start out with personalities that make conscious decisions, and all energy is exuded from matter, matter is not a result of energy. Its consumed and converted into energy, so therefore there can not be an exterior force that does not involve the consumption of matter. There is no such thing as an intangible, without the corresponding tangible to define it.
    There is no Grand intelligence, or else everybody would know everything intrinsically. Free will is simply a function of biology, and is a result our 5 senses reacting to the environment. Our brain is developed primarily because our hands are capable of fine motor skills, whereas the rest of the animal kingdom does not have that attribute, because they simply did not need it to survive. In nature, what is not needed is omitted in general, which is why cave enclosed fish species are undergoing reverse biological evolution…the eyes are not needed, so they grow over and begin to return to the brain whence they evolved from.

  32. Your first statement starts your comment on the wrong footing. Theology is a organized belief system built on a lot of critical thinking. But like anything, when people ignore things or misread things no matter how critical the thinking the conclusions are wrong. Thats what has happened with a lot of science.

    When you say there is no grand intelligence you’re off the rails. Because you make conclusions and are ignoring or misreading things. I don’t doubt your critical thinking. Its funny that you assume to know why we have brains and the animal kingdom has less.

    Cave fish are interesting, but they also gain back those eyes if taken from the cave. In a few generations, the DNA puts it all back. Funny that it some how knows to activate that portion of DNA

    We could get into some deep stuff about DNA and Ameoba’s and Bacteria Flagellum and the chemical motors made in nature etc. showing intelligent design, But I would guess, you will have some excuse for those things. So ahead of time, Merry Christmas, Happy Easter and all that. Cheers.

  33. Formation will not ever be design.
    There is absolutely no tangible evidence for design. It’s all in the human mind.
    I see you have not even really read the bible…interesting

  34. There is no critical thinking when key facts are unknown, like they were not known when the God delusion with contrived.

  35. And one could say that the 2 identical fishes…the one in the cave and the one outside the cave could differ so much over time, they would become different species…one without eyes and one with eyes. This example proves evolution and de-evolution…not creation. Creation is merely an idea contrary to all available evidence. Bear in mind that this process happens over eons of time, and is not decided by anything but environmental factors. There is no intent and has never needed to be any.
    Compare plant DNA with a human…up to 70% identical..
    Compare Bonobo DNA with a human – 99% identical
    What I find amazing is the difference the 1% can make merely over a few million years, which is NOTHING compared to the time that life has evolved. (3.5 billion years)
    All evidence points to the advent of life from plants.
    I do not recall Adam or eve being mentioned as being Lichen, yet all life started with something similar…
    Also, it is a proven fact that gamma radiation can change DNA structures very quickly in large doses…so it stands to reason that subtle doses from space may have long term effects on the morphology of DNA on earth.
    There are logical explanations to everything. None of them include a creator of everything.

  36. Hoax – I apologize for responding to you in this thread, but I was away for the long weekend and only had a chance to read your latest response late yesterday, and the thread is now closed on iPolitics.
    I’m done debating with you because you aren’t interested in a debate. You aren’t interested in a formal discussion where opposing arguments are put forward. You are unable or unwilling to consider new information or data that is contrary to your experience, or conflicts with your religion’s teachings. You are only interested in your belief system, and should anyone presents facts, evidence or proofs that don’t fit with your narrow view of the world, you dismiss them and their argument outright.
    For example, according to formal rules of a debate, I’ve proven that the War on Drugs declared by the Nixon White House had nothing to do with public safety or any health concerns stated publicly by Nixon, or any other American president since. The War on Drugs was designed to attack, harass and disrupt Nixon’s purported enemies, more specifically the anti-war left (e.g. hippies) and the black community, a policy that continues to satisfy the White House’s needs even today.
    The reason I can state this as fact is that John Ehrlichman, Nixon’s White House Counsel (e.g. the president’s legal adviser) and Chief Domestic Adviser (e.g. the White House senior staffer responsible for domestic affairs on behalf of the president) said so over 20 years ago. He died in 1999, but never sued writer Dan Baum for libel and/or slander with regards to the answer attributed to him as to why the Nixon White House launched the War of Drugs. Whether you care this is the ‘real’ reason or not is irrelevant – this is the answer, as admitted to a writer researching a book about the history of the War on Drugs by a Nixon confidant who was so close and loyal to the president that he served time in a federal prison for his role in the Watergate affair. Why can you not admit this is the simple reason for Nixon declaring a War on Drugs?
    You are confusing is your personal experience with knowledge. I’m saddened that your family has addiction issues, but for you to translate that very personal experience into a blanket statement such as “I have seen to much harm come by drugs I don’t need a Gov’t to tell me what is right or wrong” does not help your argument at all.
    You don’t care and remain ignorant of the fact that the cannabis plant has been used for centuries as medicine to reduce pain and inflammation, as an anticonvulsant, an anti-tumour and anti-depressant.
    You may be surprised to learn that drug company GW Pharmaceuticals has been studying and researching THC and CBD, components of the cannabis plant, in an effort to synthesize and patent derived compounds to treat cancer pain, childhood epilepsy and multiple sclerosis (MS) – conditions the Cannabis sativa L. plant has been treating (naturally) for hundreds of years.
    Even the example you use, the rap song titled ‘Because I Got High’ doesn’t support your argument. In the last line of the song, the singer confesses that he is ‘singing the whole thing wrong, because {he is} high’.
    The irony is that the signer, Afroman, an admitted, habitual pot smoker, not only managed to write the song, but also record it, release it to critical acclaim, and has performed it round the world. Since then, he has released 15 albums of original music. Not bad for song you believe was ‘written by a guy who was successful but saw the problem with it, and how it damages lives.’ It didn’t stop Afroman from enjoying weed, nor did it stop him from releasing a newer version in 2014 to highlight the usefulness of marijuana as part of the fight to legalize it across the U.S.
    You likely know most rock artists are habitual pot (and other drugs) users. What you may not know is that many country artists are (or have) admitting their love for the weed. Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard sing a song called ‘It’s All Going To Pot’; Tony Keith recalls smoking joints with Willie Nelson in ‘Weed with Willie’; Blake Shelton muses about ‘Ready to Roll’; Jamey Johnson moans about the ‘High Cost of Living’; Hank Williams Jr. recalls being ‘Stoned at the Jukebox’; even Johnny Cash, sings ‘Sunday Morning Coming Down’. And that’s just a quick list off the top of my head.
    Do you like movies? Are you a fan of Arnold Schwarzenegger? Pothead. How about old Hollywood he-men John Wayne or Robert Mitchum? Both potheads.
    That iPhone you have in your hand? Conceptualized by habitual pot smoker and LSD user Steve Jobs. Jobs once told an interviewer that “Doing LSD was one of the two or three most important things I have done in my life”. Not to mention the device was engineered by drug users, or that those apps you find so useful were probably designed by pot heads. You want to know how I’m so sure? There have been many articles recently revealing the difficulties the FBI, RCMP and other security agencies are having in filling programmer and developer positions, as most of the most talented potential employees are unable to pass the drug screening.
    I also find it ironic you believe Rastafari to be ‘counterfeit Christians’. This is a sect that traces its origins to the Church of Alexandria, founded by Saint Mark (yes, the author of the Gospel of Mark) which became the Coptic Church known today.
    Your particular sect, Evangelicalism, only dates back to the 18th Century, and is itself an evolution of the Church of England (Anglican), through a series of re-interpretations of the bible: pietism, Presbyterianism, and Puritanism. The Church of England itself was founded because the Roman-Catholic Church (e.g. The Pope) wouldn’t let King Henry VIII divorce his first wife in order to marry Anne Boleyn, making it a reinterpretation of the Catholic Church as founded by the first bishop of Rome, Saint Peter.
    Further, your assertion that just because someone can’t recite the chapter and verse of bible passages doesn’t mean they are bad (or counterfeit) Christians – it just means they may have issues with memorizing.
    Recall that we had a discussion about the ‘meaning’ of ‘meat’ as found in Genesis 1:29. Your perception and understanding of the passage, and I quote, “You are so wrong to associate the eating of meat with Pot”, when according to the rules of a debate, I proved that there are issues with the KJV translation, and that a more recent translation, the New International Version (NIV) replaces ‘meat’ with ‘food’. Add to that that I demonstrated that science considers the hemp plant (as well as its cousin the cannabis plant) a source of complete protein – just like meat and fish.
    The only doubt left is in your perception of the world, and there is nothing, no evidence I can show to you that will cause you to reconsider everything you believe to be true. You are unwilling or unable to process any new information or perspectives I or others have presented to you.
    It makes me sad. And is why I’m ending our correspondence.

  37. No dont know the bible that well. I have read it a few times. But i find it takes a lot for it to sink in. So i try to read a book in the bible a few times before moving on. But i think its worth it.
    As for evidence the dead leaf butterfly is everything.. so is a barrel eye fish. Hands down. Etc.

  38. That book was crazy bad.. but one would gave to gut history to remove jesus out of it.

  39. Interesting stuff but its all wrong. Not only does the fossil record preserve proof that evolution wasn’t needed. Ergo the fish are still here regardless of enviromental.. 10s of thousands of other examples prove the same. And majically aliens took all the intermediates that are not existing now or in the fossil record. Millions of abductions i guess.

  40. The thing is, not all creatures evolve…99.9% of all species have gone extinct through natural cataclysmic events and mass extinctions.
    They simply never had the chance to evolve further than they did.
    Also, some species did not need to adapt to a differing environment, because their particular part of the earth, diet, temperature…etc. did not change a lot to warrant the further evolution of the species. They only evolved to perfectly suit the environment.
    One thing is for certain, nothing snapped it’s fingers to magically make them.

  41. Jesus was a man who believed he was god. Others believed him, but he was not proclaimed as one until the Nicene creed, which was hundreds of years later…
    Out of convenience, as to merge religion into a single dominating force to control humanity, and to silence any oppositional arrangement.
    That Constantine was a real beastard. It was not until 1500 years later that free thinking was organized, and sub sequentially, the idea that the earth was not the centre of the universe.
    Anyone who was vocally against the church was proclaimed a heretic and burned over a period of 600 years…
    So if you want to know why Jesus is so popular…there’s the reason. No one dared to oppose the creationist paradigm.
    Its still happening to this day in the middle east.

  42. You don’t give them much credit. Just cause they didn’t have microwaves. Plato was before Christ. The wheel was invented. LoL. Gov’t was complex. Trade was complex. etc. etc.

    Jesus was known as God incarnate in the hearts and minds of believers before he was crucified, but it was solidified by his resurrection. The Roman oppression like todays oppression around the world causes communities to organize underground and operate in the shadows. To a great degree, where there is persecution the church grows.

    Most of Paul the apostles writings in the bible where written while under house arrest and in jail. He was a highly educated guy, a Roman and Jewish. It was only because of Gods direct intervention if you believe the story, confirmed by other writings of other Christians opposed to him at first that Paul became a christian and then forwarded the church.

    The History of the church is well known, and you can google early manuscripts and study the details, and your view of what happened is false. The Creed, can be seen in other writings before and it was a final draft if you will.

    I can’t remember at the moment what I was reading. If it was Polycarp or someone else, I think it was someone else, but anyways, I saw the beginnings of it. some similar language.

    I think you are to quick to discount people and History. I think that might be because of the general bigotry against religion and so you discount things without giving them proper treatment.

  43. This Idea of extinction is actually false. The fossil record and its layers provides “extinction event” records you would think, but the fossils found like fish and ferns and bugs and clams and foxes etc. are all still living today. so much for the extinction events that fossilized them.
    And so much for evolution seeing they are unchanged. Sure there are extinctions. The white rhino and maybe the giraffe will come soon if we are not careful, maybe a owl or two too.
    The Dinosaur also went extinct. But we don’t see millions of small changes between mice and men, between fish and froxgs. Even the Mudskipper is as it was. This Idea of Evolution is false.

    Sure we have a similar DNA structure. Life is made using this code. It does not mean that things evolved. That is not science, not seen as reality. There is no proof that information was added to the genome over time. In fact. You cannot get DNA from stones. You couldn’t use Science to show that if you wanted too. All you can do is look at existing animals and create a conjecture that they are not creations but a stack of things where fish came before Alligators and they share some DNA cause they have DNA. But in the fossil record. There isn’t this sweet division of plants then fish then animals then bigger animals etc. thats a Myth. Most of the layers in the Grand canyon are of next to nothing, and then in the top layer or two is all the things we know and love. I think the proof would be that all of that is from the ocean, or a inner ocean that formed in a very short time and then drained away. And those layers can be seen across the world, on every continent.

    So there is no proof of evolution. Proof against it, and the fact that life is based using DNA is not proof one came from the other.
    Design by DNA that has no eyes to see, made things like the Dead leaf butterfly when all the other kinds survive just fine, but it is refined to look exactly like a dead leaf. That and many others prove that God intentionally with artistic ability, specifically made them using DNA tweaking them. And that this DNA is a code and can be tweaked to do that.

    So while Science sees the DNA is tweakable, that its wonderful, that every human is a mix of two different DNA’s and none the same. It is not proof of evolution, but a very creative resourceful God.

  44. I don’t think I have ever had the pleasure of debating with someone of whom was so convinced of creation even though there is no tangible evidence.
    The funny thing is, none of it NONE is true at all.
    Charles Darwin was a complete moron I guess, along with every single scientifically educated person on earth…
    If everyone viewed the world like you, nothing would make any logical sense…
    Technology is the result of scientific research, not religious dogma of any religious flavor. Also, it is not bigotry to claim falsity as false, but thank you for calling me a bigot…
    What I have come to realize is a result of learning all the angles, from an education in engineering and study of natural forces and the indoctrination of scripture at a young age. The truth of existence will never be revealed to someone who believes whole-heartedly in creation, for it robs one of the ability to critically think. Anything observable to the person has to fit within the strict paradigm of creationism, whereas the person with the opened free thinking mind is not shackled by the burdens and beliefs of dogma, but exists in a state of serendipity, which is a religious impossibility. You can’t discover new things when the mindset is in dogmatic jail.
    Every major discovery ever made about reality has diametrically opposed creationist theory, and its never until 100’s of years later that the indoctrinated mind becomes open to reality, when the facts become undeniable.

  45. Darwin was a kid but was good with drawing. He had no dna or fossil evidence and like many of the over reaching scientists today lie. They say what they say without the actual science behind what they say.
    The actual science. The actual rocks bluntly say evolution is a hoax. They didnt accidentally match what we have living today.. and its no bloody accident that the billions of transitions are missing. Its a smoking gun of epic proportions.. and only a massive wopper of a delussion could hide that fact from any honest scientist.

  46. Be nice to christian creationists. You do know that francis bacon was a christian!

  47. Sorry to break it to you, but the only complicated thing about trade at the time was getting the product to market.

  48. He was also Bigoted toward atheists, as are you.
    He was also corrupt and retired in disgrace.

  49. Belief is a verb that isnf about fact or not fact. Faith on the other hand is about trust in something or someone such that you act out of that trust. These things are unrelated to any debate about gods existence or trust in science generally. Science is more about blind or educated guesses about how things are or can be. There is no conflict with good science because searcing for answers is a god designed thing to do.
    – seek and you will find.. knock and the door wiil be opened…

  50. Science isn’t about blind guesses Hoaxy. And I’m glad to hear you are on board with good science. Looking forward to you apologizing for your years of embarrassing posts about evolution.
    Try to keep any hysterical rebuttal under 50 words.

  51. Hey!. did they let you out for the weekend? LoL. You must be lonely looking me up.

    In other news, I got a deal on a Envoy Denali. Its a old one, 2006 with 190,000 KM. for $4,000 But its in good shape and I can use it for work. Waiting for it to be certified. Hopefully I will get it Monday.

    I was looking at a Van when I saw this Envoy, and it has a frame under it and is 4 wheel drive. The only drawback was that it is 8 Cylinder. But having 350 HP. will help with towing my Trailer.

    You know, Just cause I am a Christian doesn’t mean I don’t have a life, have talent and smarts. I might even know a bit of science too.

  52. I am not corrupt, but I am to a degree bigoted against Atheists. Who isn’t.

  53. You have used that “joke” so many times it’s got mold.
    I like to check in on you occasionally just to remind myself what I’m not missing.
    I’m having a great time on the religion channel with your fellow travellers. I managed to get quite a few to wet their pants.
    Any claims to intelligence are undermined by your moniker.
    See you in another month or so.

  54. You are in luck. I have been a Christian for about 35 years. So enough water is under the bridge that I got some good true stories for you, and one big difference among Christians is their depth of relationship with God. There is nominal Christians that sort of live as a Christian, and then there are more serious ones. And out of those serious ones, there are those that are on the more radical side because of Gods work in their lives. I am one of those. I don’t like talking Churchy, so its not that I have been churchified, actually I am a bit rough around the edges, but. I got a great relationship with Jesus Christ and My Faith is Rock solid. Basically i Love God, and I know God loves me, and we are living our lives out together on this ball of dirt flying through the cosmos he created. I think we both get a kick out of it.

  55. So you are elbowing a few over on the religion channel. Tisk Tisk. I hope a bruiser like me won’t have to come over there and clean up your mess.
    I am on a roll. I love this heat, I could use some more fun with you, but, its summer time. I got to make hay while the sun shines. And there is lots of alligators in the pond, not just on the internet.

    so, See you later. Alligator.

  56. Hi Kevin. I don’t think I have ever got a response 25 days later. Funny you would say Chemical Engineering. All Chemistry is is the actions and reactions of chains of atoms with other chains etc. Its rocket science to people just cause there is a lot of combinations and types of reactions but really, there is nothing advanced about it. Like anything its a complex puzzle until you study it, and memorize the details.

    As for the bible. Billions of people over the years have read it and have been changed, I think mostly for Jesus’ words because they cause a chemical reaction with the brain when they provoke conviction and a response to go one way or the other.

    here is one that some react too. “unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Religious leaders you will not enter the kingdom of God” or “the love of money is the root of all evil.” Those are a couple that cause a reaction.

  57. Even an entry level calculus textbook is more difficult to comprehend.
    Read Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad. Even that is more difficult.

  58. Oh, I don’t know which is thicker, your ignorance or the arrogance with which you make a fool of yourself. You are clearly ignorant of the fact that the scientific definition of “theory” is completely different from the colloquial definition of the word. You dismiss the age of the earth and evolution as “just a theory”, because you only know the common conversational definition of the word, which describes a guess or hunch based on little or no evidence. In science an unproven idea is called a “hypothesis”, but after a hypothesis is proven by scientists who are completely independent of each other conducting the same test & receiving the same results every time, it becomes a theory, because it has been PROVEN, because an overwhelming majority of evidence gathered through observation & testing supports it
    With regard to the age of rocks & the earth in general, scientists aren’t just guessing and while current science doesn’t allow them to determine down to a specific day or year, the range they determine can’t be off by billions of years. They arrived at between 4.5 & 4.6 billion years using not just one, not two, but THREE (3) separate tests:
    1, Radiation Measurement – most chemical elements are created when two or more different elements come together with enough energy to cause their atoms to bond together. From the time an element is formed, the energy holding each atom together begins to slowly dissipate & when there is no longer enough energy to keep the original elements bound together, each atom begins to separate into the original elements. When an element has decayed to the point that the amount of separated elements equals the amount of the combined element, the time from that point back to when the element was created is called the element’s half-life. Scientists determine the age of a rock by looking for an element whose half-life is known and seeing how much of that combined element has already separated into the original elements. The method for determining the radioactive decay rate of elements was developed in 1896 & it was refined to an accurate means of determining the age of earth materials by 1950.
    2, Stratigraphic Superposition – Just as you can determine the age of a tree by cutting it open & counting the rings and you can determine the relative time different layers of ice were formed by extracting ice cores, the age of items found in the ground can be estimated based on studying the layers of soil & rock that have settled. A lot of variables must be taken into account & it is nowhere near as accurate as radiation measurement, but 200 years ago before technology allowed more accurate methods, stratigraphic superposition was the standard.
    3, The Fossil Record – All over the world fossilized remains are found in the same specific order, with fossils of the more primitive forms of life that lived underwater being found below more complex lifeforms such as fish. We know dinosaurs predated humans & went extinct before humans & most mammals came into existence because fossilized dinosaur bones are found far below fossilized humans or their ancestors. The order of the fossils record is uniform on all areas of the planet.
    The idea that the global scientific community is just making stuff up is absurd & ignores centuries of work & research.

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